The LDS Dating Problem

I started hearing about the “you’re not getting married” problem when I was still in college, and still unmarried. I had to sit through firesides, CES Devotionals, and other special meetings telling me I was bad for not being married yet, and that I needed to “man up.” I was berated for just hanging out and not asking girls on dates.

I wasn’t ever insulted by the talks, nor do I think they did any permanent damage to me or my ego. However, I was confused by the talks. Looking back, I can now see why I was confused. The speaker assumed that we did not want to date and get married, and therefore decided try to convince us to date. Coming from a perspective that assumes that guys do not want to date, the most logical talk one would give would be a talk designed to persuade them to date and get married.

Not only does this perspective lead one to give these confusing talks, it also sends them on a wild goose chase looking for reasons why young men do not want to date (as most talks blame the young men for not asking). During this wild goose chase, they probably listen to account after account from girls talking about how they never get asked on dates. They probably also asked the young men why they didn’t ask any girls out, and got several vague responses like “there are not any girls I am interested in,” or “I am going on dates, it must be the other guys that are not going on them.”

However, I doubt the girls or the guys are being really honest answering these questions. Not that the respondents are intentionally misleading the interviewer, but the respondents probably are not completely honest with themselves. It takes some serious thought and insight for a guy to get to the real reason why he hasn’t asked out a girl for a few months, as it does for girls to think about why they haven’t been asked out.

So imagine what an interviewer would think when an attractive girl tells him that she hasn’t been asked out for a few months. He would think, the guys are lazy and stupid for not asking this really awesome girl out. It might be true that the girl hasn’t been asked on a date for a few months, however, that doesn’t mean she hasn’t received any male attention in the past few months. In fact, if she is attractive and nice, she probably has had plenty of male attention, just not from the males with whom she actually wants to go on a date.

So what is her response to all of this male attention, and why isn’t it leading to dates and finally marriages? She responds to this attention in the following ways:

  1. “Uw, get away from me you unattractive creep.”
  2. Avoids him as much as possible, and talks trash about him to all of her girlfriends. (Do you think he will have a chance at dating any of them?)
  3. Keeps him around, because it’s nice to have a guy friend. Never sees him in a romantic light. Does hang out with him (although he might actually count this as a date or a move towards a date, she doesn’t). She probably thinks he is a really nice guy, would make a great husband, for some other girl, but not her. He, of course, thinks of her every hour of every day, and if he will just be nicer to her, she will come around and they will get married. He gives the stink eye to every other guy who even remotely approaches her, and flips out if she is ever asked on a date by another guy, especially when she accepts.

So, the boys that fall into categories 1 and 2 have dug a pretty deep pit for themselves, and self-aware young men will pick up on the signals that girls give them. If they detect that a girl is not interested, they will probably not ask her out, because doing so will either get them labeled as a creep or ruin their chances with all of the other girls in that social group. Girls talk, and no girl wants to go out with the guys who have been labeled as unattractive. So, in order to not become that guy, young men will usually look elsewhere, and quietly disappear into the background to get label a “Peter Pan” boy.

Young men that fall into the third category think they are doing their part. They are going on “dates” with a girl. They go over and talk to them. Take them out to eat, and other small trips. However, the girl never sees any of this as a date, or anything romantic. It is just a couple of friends “hanging out”. It only counts as a date if she is attracted to him. She really does think he is a great guy, but as I have said before, always for another girl. Although pretty obvious to pretty much just about everyone but the boy, he doesn’t stand a chance with her. Unfortunately, no one bothers to tell him. Especially the girl because then she would lose him as a friend.

Although, there are some “Peter Pan” boys who are addicted to their video games and porn, the bigger problem is an attraction problem. Most of the time, when a boy asks out a girl, she’s not interested, and the guys the girl wants to be asked out by are not interested in her.

Dating used to work a few decades ago, so what has changed in the last few decades that has created this attraction issue? Who have changed more in the past 3-4 decades, girls or boys? Before, girls dreamed of being wives and mothers. Now they dream of having it all: careers, husbands, and kids. Before, it was only the men that really sought after careers. Now, in a lot of ways, women seek out careers more then men, at least until they can settle down with the kids.

So what does this have to do with attraction? Ask any girl if she would honestly date someone shorter than she is and the answer, unless she is over 6 feet tall, will mostly likely be no. Girls only find men attractive when they have a higher status than she does. Higher status means better looking, taller, smarter, more money, more popular, etc.

Before, most men saw their career as a means to an end – to be a good husband and father. Their career provided them with money to provide for their family and a higher status to attract and keep a wife. However, now that women are actively seeking to have it all, men can no longer rely on their career to bring them the higher status needed to attract a wife. Now he must rely on other indicators of high status – good looks, popularity, and charm (game).

Most women seek after a career for a much different reason, they want the status it brings. They have bought into the lie that their life cannot be complete without a good education and career. Being a mother isn’t enough anymore. They must be more. However, in their pursuit for a good career, they only increase their own perceived status. They do not increase their attractiveness to men. Men can care less about a women’s status. Men only care about two things, good looks and a nice personality (spirituality being included with the personality). So as women are busy increasing their status and not increasing their attractiveness, they are making their pool of attractive men smaller and smaller. Eventually, only the highest status men are attractive to a majority of the women, and those men have lots of options.

In my singles wards, and those I have observed after getting married (having worked closely with college wards and students), there are 3-4 young men actually dating, 2-3 young men that all of the girls want, and the rest of the young men.

To make matters worse, all of the young men have grown up being fed lies on what women actually find attractive. Instead of telling men that women like athletic, good looking men with status and charm (tall, dark and handsome), we tell them they like nice, sweet, young men. Young men who worship the ground that these girls walk on. Therefore we get a lot of beta orbiters, who think they are working towards a romantic relationship with a women. However, all of these young men are wasting their time and resources on some other man’s wife, if she ever manages to find a man attractive enough for her.

So what should a young man do if he really wants to get married?

  1. Find a good way to provide for your future family. One of the most unattractive qualities a man can have is being a man without a plan. Whatever you choose, be passionate about it, and don’t let any girl get in the way of achieving it.
  2. Find a hobby and be passionate about it. Don’t give it up when you start pursuing or dating a girl.  If a girl does like you, your passions and hobbies are part of it. It’s highly likely that her attraction for you will quickly fade if you give up your passion to be with her. Don’t ever let her take it from you!
  3. Get as physically attractive as possible. If your fat, get in shape. If you are skinny, lift weights and drink protein shakes. Make sure you clothes fit you well and look good.
  4. Most importantly, never ever become a beta orbiter. If she won’t commit to a relationship, move on. You have more of a chance of winning her heart dating other girls than you do pursuing her. Don’t waste your time, effort, and money on someone else’s wife! (By the way, if a girl finds you somewhat attractive but still won’t commit, try asking another girl on a date, and almost ignoring her. She thought she had you as a good back up plan while she looked for someone better. Suddenly, your gone and she just might want you back. Don’t commit to her without her full commitment to you. If she just wants to be friends, date others.)
  5. Learn game. Just search for game and manosphere. Be real careful if you have porn problems, because a lot of the advice can be pretty crude and pornographic. Stay away from all of the sex advice until you are married. Vox Day is the cleanest I have seen, but a little more complex then it needs to be. Game can really be learned in a few days reading. Applying it will take a lifetime. Don’t waste you time just reading it. You need to have plenty of time getting in shape and practicing it.

Feminism has change a lot about our society, and made our world very difficult for men and women to navigate. These problems are not arising only in the LDS church, but in all churches. Just check out some other churches‘ response to it.



4 thoughts on “The LDS Dating Problem

  1. This article is Awesome! It hits the nail on the head! I wish the young single adult ward bishops would read this instead of just yelling at the young men.


  2. […] Church leaders worry that young LDS men and women aren’t dating and marrying.  Since it the current year church leaders assume that it’s the men’s fault and lecture them on no….  They don’t really ask men why aren’t they dating and marrying and what can Mormon Church […]


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